Staffan Truvé [00:00:02]: Gothenburg, for example, has a digital twin of the city, they make digital twins of factories, more at machine level then. I think one will see it as something more natural that there is a digital representation of most things, including ourselves!
Peter Burman [00:00:15]: When working with automation, trying to optimize processes, you will always reduce resource consumption - almost always!
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:00:24]: You can only take such an example as textile, it is a chain from consumers to those who recycle and then reuse that material again.
Daniel Holmberg [00:00:39]: Hello, and welcome to Innovation - a podcast from the Swedish Innovation Authority Vinnova! Vi finds us in the middle of a digital transformation that involves revolutionary changes for the whole society, from manufacturing and transportation to health, education and how we design our cities affected. Almost all companies, organizations and individuals are affected. At the same time, it is urgent to change to a sustainable society, how can we make digitalisation and the green transition go hand in hand? What the EU calls "twin transition", and what do we in Sweden need to do to be at the forefront and be competitive when other countries are now investing heavily in digitization? We'll talk about this in today's panel, my name is Daniel Holmberg. With us here in the studio, we have Staffan Truvé, head of research at the cyber security company Recorded Future!
Staffan Truvé [00:01:33]: Thank you very much!
Daniel Holmberg [00:01:34]: And you're also a member of Vinnova's board of directors, shall we say!
Staffan Truvé [00:01:37]: That's right!
Daniel Holmberg [00:01:37]: And Cecilia Sjöberg, head of division for industrial development at Vinnova! Välkommen you too!
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:01:43]: Thank you very much!
Daniel Holmberg [00:01:44]: Digitization is accelerating and changing almost every industry and sector. Sometimes there is talk of a new digital wave, also what has been called the fourth industrial revolution. What can we say about this? Which industries and sectors will be most affected in the coming years? Are there any parts of society that have not previously been so much affected but where there is now great potential? What do you say Staffan?
Staffan Truvé [00:02:13]: I mean, first of all, it must be said that there is no one who will not be affected, but this strikes in all industries and all businesses, both companies and in the public sector. Then the speed is a little different! I'm a bit skeptical of this concept "digitization", I like to talk more about the data drive really because I think it captures a lot of this stuff then as well as that you understand that by measuring activities and control based on measurement data for example, you can achieve a lot of effects. Not least through the area of sustainability, it is a very important component to actually understand how to do and be able to adjust things in real time. That's the important thing! If you look at industries that may not have been affected so much but will do so much more, I think, for example, that agriculture is such an area where we will see it much more. There are small pockets of it today, but I think that the whole chain really - agriculture and food for the grocery trade - is an example of something that will change a lot in the future.
Daniel Holmberg [00:03:11]: Intressant! Vad do you say Cecilia? Har do you have any more examples?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:03:15]: Yes, but I think if you broaden the concept a bit with digitization and if you also think about automation and automation, data is very important, but there are great opportunities to reduce energy use in the mining industry for example or in agriculture - I think that is also a great example - with drones to check how the harvest is going and such. But what I think is important is that you start now, and the combination of thinking about sustainability, digitization or data-driven.
Daniel Holmberg [00:03:48]: Och Sverige was very successful early in digitalisation, you could say when it comes to things like internet, fiber, mobile applications and we remember the PC reform and things like that! But how are we doing today and for the future? What strengths and weaknesses does Sverige? Vill have you say something Staffan?
Staffan Truvé [00:04:12]: If you are a little cynical, you can say that we are getting worse in many such measurements. As I said, we had a very good start, but then maybe we have not really followed it up in the future and today, for example, when it comes to broadband expansion to the whole country, we are not very good. Another thing like this that you usually put as a metric is if you look - now it gets a little technical here - but that you have switched from IPV4, the old application mechanism, to IPV6. Sweden is extremely far down the lists there! If we look at our ranking in cybersecurity, we are not as good there as the ranking we are in in digitalisation, which is a bit dangerous!
Daniel Holmberg [00:04:51]: Can you explain that with IPV?
Staffan Truvé [00:04:53]: It is so that there is a rebuilding of the entire internet, you could say to be able to handle the addressing. When we want to connect the whole community, all machines and gadgets and stuff, originally the internet was not really built to be able to handle so many things to address. So then they have developed a new standard for how to address things and that is where Sweden is very far down the list! Our telecom operators have not cared so much about it and somewhere it will set limits on how far we will go, for example in the digitalisation of industry and all sorts of activities. But basically I think that Sweden was, as I said, very good, very early out, but we have kind of been a little too happy with our early and in that way we slip after more and more, I think! So you should not be so happy about our situation today.
Daniel Holmberg [00:05:46]: No, that's worrying! Do you share this picture Cecilia?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:05:49]: No, I have a slightly more positive view of life! At least from our perspective at Vinnova where we see, we work widely with very many areas and if we look at our entire project portfolio of more than 3000 ongoing projects, more than half have some form of digitization competence and it's everything from life science, the food area, industry and the public sector. But it is clear that it is they who are already at the forefront, then it is to bring all companies or all organizations!
Staffan Truvé [00:06:20]: Maybe I should clarify, I just felt that we still have very good lace but we have jobs to do on the width, you could say!
Daniel Holmberg [00:06:30]: Yes, that leads to this follow-up question a little bit! So what does Sweden mainly need to invest in? Where are the needs greatest? One thing is that technology exists, but what is required for it to be used? What do you say, Cecilia?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:06:44]: It is precisely that it should be used and used and developed where it is needed. But the big challenge for us in Sweden is access to competence. People who know both basic skills and IT security are such an important area, but also top skills. The companies are crying out for this competence and it is either new people who are going in but also to further education and this with lifelong learning - that you have both the digital competence and more area competence.
Daniel Holmberg [00:07:25]: Och Vinnova has, together with the Swedish Post and Telecom Agency, DIGG - the authority for digital administration - and the Swedish Research Council presented a proposal for a strategic programme called gathering power for digital structural transformation. It focuses on green and digital transformation and this particular shift in skills you talked about. Do you want to develop a little about this Cecilia?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:07:49]: Yes, but we were given an assignment last year, 2021, to develop such a pool of forces together with the other authorities and we proposed four areas that were particularly important to invest in. It was partly digitalisation and green transformation, where we have started working with it and developing initiatives for it. Advanced digitization, where we have come quite far so there we will soon launch a new efforts (sometimes also initiatives). Digital infrastructure and data were the third and the fourth was precisely about digital competence and maturity, and there the Swedish Growth Agency has also joined this collaboration and is working with it. If we look around, we see that other countries are investing a lot, especially now after the pandemic! These are huge investments in many countries and that is why we proposed a substantial efforts (sometimes also initiatives). So that we would be up to a number, five billion, I think we wrote in the report, in 2024. We are not really there yet but we have to start somewhere so we have started, together with the other authorities, to do this.
Daniel Holmberg [00:08:54]: What do you say Staffan? Har you read this proposal?
Staffan Truvé [00:08:58]: Yes, I read it and it's just like you say a very good start. But we need to do more if we are to maintain and improve our competitive position, I think. Then I think it is important also when talking about these things that it is not just business but there is a lot of public sector. There you only need to go across the Baltic Sea to the Baltic states that have come much further with such things in the world of government. Above all, we have the Swedish Tax Agency as the shining star when it comes to digitizing activities - they do incredible things! There are many authorities that have not come this far at all!
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:09:29]: Now our government has developed a new strategy, industrial strategy that also focuses on green digital conversion and also the EU has its green give, so there is a push and there is a focus on this area but I think that in order for us to maintain our competitiveness in Sweden, we must invest more.
Daniel Holmberg [00:09:53]: Can you give some concrete examples of what it is you want to achieve, so to speak, with these ventures?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:10:01]: Yes, we have to change! The business community really needs to change, we have many fine examples of such large ones. Som Hybrit, how do we get fossil-free steel? But there must be several such examples and that it is not just testing and demonstration activities but that you also get it in the breadth and that manufacturing for example or our consumption should be more sustainable and then there are good digital tools that you can use.
Staffan Truvé [00:10:33]: A piece there is well easy to use! Now, due to the pandemic, we made a record-breaking leap in digitization and in many ways all people long to return to meet people in the office and such, but we must sort of use what we have learned from these years and take it forward and maybe think further too. Now everyone is swearing over hybrid meetings that do not work! There are obviously things to do so that we can work more remotely but still have a community in the office, for example. In the same way, you can say that what we have seen in recent years when it comes to global transport chains and things like that, how vulnerable they actually are! One thing that will happen there is that it will certainly move home, maybe not all the way home to Sweden but in any case move our supply chains closer to each other. It will also be required that we plan in a different way, so there is as much as you can get into here!
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:11:27]: I think so too, I think of the school that really made a big leap from being completely based in the school environment and then they have now had distance learning that has actually worked very well. But to take advantage of the opportunities where digitalisation is at its best, to use it and then be in school when you need to be. I think that many have discovered many benefits in working life, to be able to have things at a distance.
Staffan Truvé [00:11:56]: I was actually thinking about that, as in the news the other day when I said that FMH said that covid is no longer classified as a socially dangerous disease - thus the school can no longer have distance education! It's a little fascinating that they do not say that we can continue to have it in some cases and some contexts where it actually works very well!
Daniel Holmberg [00:12:16]: Intressant! Jag thought about it Staffan, you said that Sweden seems to be slipping. We are at the forefront of digitalisation, but which countries are foremost? Who can we learn from?
Staffan Truvé [00:12:33]: As I said, the Baltic states have done very impressive. Then there are the common examples of countries moving very fast, Israel for example. But you also see a lot of Asian countries, maybe because they do not have as much history, they move faster in different ways. Singapore is also such a classic example that you bring up! They do a lot of things!
Daniel Holmberg [00:12:57]: You were in on this with how it can contribute to green transition and at your level it is highlighted how digitization can contribute to climate and environmental work called twin transition. Among other things in the big investment EU's green give! Cecilia, do you want to develop a little? What is twin transition about?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:13:20]: It is precisely to combine digital technology in a broad sense to contribute to us being able to make a transition to a sustainable society and the green given covers all areas from transport, food, public sector, energy supply is very important! Production, consumption.. so it really takes the big grip, that description of the green given. But it is precisely this combination that is interesting and then if you only look at the IT and Telecom sector itself, it must also turn green! Getting circular flows, not just throwing things in the trash but reusing, reusing and recycling is very important so that we get circular flows in society. One can only take such an example as textile, how can we get better at recycling clothes and textiles of various kinds? It is a chain, everyone has to contribute to that chain from consumers to those who recycle and then reuse that material again. There you can use just data to see those flows! Where are the big flows somewhere? Where can you make the biggest difference?
Daniel Holmberg [00:14:44]: And why is this not happening to a greater extent today? What are the biggest obstacles? What are the knots that need to be untied Staffan?
Staffan Truvé [00:14:57]: In part, that's what Cecilia said here before, competence! It is also typical that digital competence is very concentrated in large companies and in smaller cutting-edge companies. If you go out and look at, for example, a broad manufacturing industry or such areas, the food industry, for example, you may not have the skills you would need to even understand what you might be able to do. This is getting better and better, you have to say of course, more young people are coming out who may have a different background and think more in this way, but it is still a challenge. The second reason that, as usual, means that things do not happen is that there are not enough short-term financial incentives and there are no regulations or platonic restrictions that you might need to be forced to recycle textiles or such things, for example. It's a whip and a carrot that's missing!
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:15:58]: Yes, and that it is long chains! So it's not a company, it's everything from starting to produce clothes to buying and reusing for a long time and then reusing. There are many actors in this chain who have to see their grant in the chain and I think a lot is about behavioral changes in us as human beings.
Daniel Holmberg [00:16:26]: The suggestions you have made, do they address part of this to change incentives and such things as well?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:16:36]: Yes, it is a bit difficult but I think the regulations and policy development and such are important. That is why you have to include those actors in the development projects that we finance, that you see if more regulations are needed or if there are regulations that prevent us if you take reuse again. So you have to not only look at the technical development but also how it will work in society and then regulations are an important part!
Staffan Truvé [00:17:09]: Then I think there has probably been a new limiting factor. I mean, everyone has read that the automotive industry suffers from semiconductor shortages and that kind of thing! It has been noted at European level that it is completely dependent on, above all, factories in Asia for important components for digitization. There is an initiative to make Europe more self-sufficient in the area, but I can think that if you sit today and think that you should develop a new product that contains a lot of "state of art" components, then maybe you worry a little if you will really be able to get deliveries going forward. So it has not been a limiting factor before but right now I can imagine that it is actually something that can slow down some things!
Daniel Holmberg [00:17:53]: Yes, and you, Cecilia, mentioned earlier that many other countries are investing heavily in digitization. South Korea has something called a "digital new deal" with 64 billion a year, Germany has Zukunft Digitale with 33 billion a year and Finland invests 500 million. You then suggest an upshift in Sweden, but is this enough?
Cecilia Sjöberg [00:18:24]: Yes, at least a very good start but it is clear that we are part of Europe. I think it's interesting with semiconductor supply in Europe, should we start manufacturing it in Europe and set up factories for it? We have not had that for a long time, but on the other hand, things can happen quickly! I think of a colleague who said that "If someone had told me five years ago that we would have battery production in Sweden, I would have just shaken my head" and then we get an entrepreneur who manages to attract a lot of investment(s) and places Sweden on the map in terms of battery development and recycling of batteries. It's amazing! It is not impossible that a combination of government efforts, private capital that can actually make this happen. But it is worrying that others are investing, we are lagging behind and it takes time to catch up.
Daniel Holmberg [00:19:25]: What more do you say Staffan? Behövs?
Staffan Truvé [00:19:29]: Everyone always says it's necessary! Yes, there is certainly more to do but at the same time you have to step up this a bit gradually. You should not waste more money than can be used in a sensible way, so I prefer that you step it up over the years at some reasonable pace. Then I also believe a bit in other components that are important here and that is a lack of skills. If there is something that I think could make us move faster, it would have been to open up more for skills immigration in Sweden, for example. There are faster ways to get skills, we need to further train existing people and we need to train new ones. But I think that in order to be able to grow in this area that we have the potential to do, we must actually attract new people to Sweden with this competence as well.
Daniel Holmberg [00:20:17]: When you say digitalization, many people probably think of tech companies and various digital services. But the fact is that the digital transformation is revolutionizing the traditional basic industry! Our producer, Jan Svartling has met Peter Bjurman, program manager for mining automation at Boliden.
Peter Burman [00:20:36]: Today Boliden has, I'm a little unsure of the exact number but somewhere between 4000 and 5000 access points underground to be able to carry out digitization.
Jan Svartling [00:20:46]: And when did it really become possible to start using digitalisation?
Peter Burman [00:20:52]: We had the first working net in the spring of 2013, when it really started to spin!
Jan Svartling [00:20:59]: Is it also the case that you can take advantage of digital solutions to reduce the climate footprint?
Peter Burman [00:21:06]: That is an interesting question because if you look at automation in general, it is often that you optimize a process. Whenever you optimize something, you reduce resource utilization. Then I can take an example! We have introduced something called Ventilation on Demand and then we use this system, and then we set up geofence in the mine. When machines and people move between different areas in the mine, the ventilation is balanced according to which internal combustion engines are there and how many people are there. So you distribute the air fairly and no more than what is needed. This saves huge amounts of money for us, the energy consumption for ventilation in two mines where we have tested this went down by about 50%. So the answer to your question is when you are doing automation and trying to optimize processes, you will always reduce resource consumption, almost always! And in this case, you can then say that in Sweden we have a small problem and that is that we have been so very good so our power grid is basically completely clean of carbon dioxide. It does not matter so much how much electricity we consume, we do not increase carbon dioxide emissions. While at our mine in Ireland, where you basically have coal-based electricity and there it means that as soon as we can reduce the use of energy, we reduce emissions. This system, the positioning system that saved money in Sweden, when we moved over what we are now doing to our mine in Ireland, we reduce carbon dioxide emissions.
Jan Svartling [00:22:45]: What are the main advantages you would say about being able to digitize the mine?
Peter Burman [00:22:53]: So the mining automation program that I lead actually has two assignments. One is to improve productivity and the other is to improve mining safety. Then you can think that this with mining safety and personal safety is just bullshit, but we track all personnel underground so we know where they are in the event of an accident! It is a huge advance in the mining industry and the rescue service in Skellefteå has calculated that the response time in a mining accident has decreased by one hour after we have introduced this new positioning system and it is a fantastic landing when it comes to saving lives in the event of an accident during soil.
Jan Svartling [00:23:32]: Do you have any concrete examples where you have developed and applied digital solutions that have also led to you developing your core business?
Peter Burman [00:23:45]: Yes, you can say like this that when the networks came into place in the mine, you can also see that what arises becomes a form of data democratization, suddenly the miners get access to new modern tools and they start developing their own way of working without involving engineers or anything else. They do it on their own! So it did not take long before we had mechanics who could download their drawings on tablets instead of taking them down to the mine on paper. It did not take long before people who worked with mining built their own webcams to monitor, for example, concrete filling and other things that they do. Then they could have a camera and then they could go to the coffee room, have a coffee and sit and watch while a cast was filled up or something else. That is a very good example of when digitalisation goes directly into the core business and how important it is with data democratization as well, that you give new digital tools to your employees. Then amazing things happen!